Author Topic: Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?  (Read 2811 times)

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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?
« on: June 05, 2015, 09:03:12 pm »
Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?

Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou a biblical scholar thinks so.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2kwlx6

When I add in the research being done by archeologist Israel Finkelstein showing what may be the true picture of the ancient Israelites, I too begin to think that the Jewish Eden was in Jerusalem. The God /King would have been from the Levi tribe and a Levi priest who would have been the head of the Jewish Divine Council.

 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x13mwrw_the-bible-unearthed-1-the-patriarchs_webcam

I think that the key is the river Gihon that ties it all together.

What do you think?
Was Eden in Jerusalem and did they have a God/King in charge?

Were all of our Gods and Kings always humans?

Regards
DL

Offline Re@PeR

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Re: Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2015, 01:06:55 pm »
A story that has been plagiarized it seems ... maybe it even meant astral plan or something that has nothing to do with a garden in the original sense ...

Quote
The peoples of ancient Mesopotamia* also believed in an earthly paradise named Eden, located somewhere in the east. According to some ancient sources, the four main rivers of the ancient Near East—the Tigris, Euphrates, Halys, and Araxes—flowed out of the garden. Scholars today debate the origin of the word Eden. Some believe it comes from a Sumerian* word meaning "plain." Others say it is from the Persian word heden, meaning "garden."

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Dr-Fi/Eden-Garden-of.html



Quote
I take the "Humanist position," that the Garden of Eden is a Myth and all
the dialogs coming from the characters in this Myth are from the mind of the
narrator. I do, however, agree with Dr. Jonathan D. Safren, that behind all
myths are historical kernels. In this case the "kernels" are vestiges of
earlier Mesopotamian myths reaching back to the 3rd and 2nd milleniums BCE
which the Hebrews later reinterpreted into the Garden of Eden and its motifs
(cf. my earlier postings to this list arguing that the Hebrew Bible is a
creation of the 5th century BCE).

My research has suggested that several ancient Mesopotamian myths have been
combined and reinterpreted and probably lie behind the Eden story and its
scenarios regarding God, Adam, Eve and the Serpent.

First, is the myth titled "Adapa and the South Wind."  Adapa journeys to
Heaven and loses a chance to obtain
immortality by refusing to consume the food and drink which would confer it
on him, on the advice of  the jealous god he serves, Enki. I suspect this
where the Hebrews are getting their notion that the eating of a fruit from a
plant on the earth, can give one immortality.

The Mesopotamian myths stress that Man was made in order grow and harvest
food to feed and nourish the gods. He did this by presenting "real food,"
harvested from irrigation fed gardens, and slaughtering animals for meat.
Water, beer and wine were poured out on the altars for the gods to consume.
Evidently these products of the earth were conceived sometimes as rising up
to heaven where the Gods dwelt, in the form of smoke, allowing them to
"mystically consume or smell" the food as a sweet savour.  Thus earthly
grown food, feeds the gods.

When Adapa got to Heaven, he was presented food and drink, which would have
conferred immortality (as the gods consume earthly food, the food they
offered him, had to have been earthly in origin too). He refused the food
and drink, having been forewarned by the god he served on earth, Enki, that
he would surely die if he consumed them. Anu laughed to hear that Adapa
wouldn't eat or drink, so he sent him back to the earth from which he came,
and thus mankind lost its chance at immortality.

Before offering Adapa the food, Anu, the supreme god, made an interesting
statement, after quizzing Adapa to learn how he was able to break the south
wind's arm and prevent sea breezes reaching Lower Mesopotamia, he learned in
disbelief, that Enki had revealed certain knowledge to Adapa, knowledge that
was restricted to the gods, and not to be possessed by Mankind. It was upon
this realization that Adapa possessed secret knowledge restricted to the
gods, that he thereupon decided to offer him immortality by having him
consume the drink and food which could confer it (If he's got a god's
wisdom, why not make him a god ?).

The Hebrews have merely "reworked" and given "a new twist" to the ancient
Mesopotamian myths which attempted to explain how man lost a chance to
become immortal.

Now the Serpent. Genesis portrays the serpent as possessing two rather
amazing characteristics, it has the ability to walk on legs, and it can
carry on a conversation with humans. This serpent is also portrayed as
dwelling in an earthly paradise with God, Adam and Eve. My research has
concluded that the Sumerian Dragon-Serpent called "Nin-Gish-Zida" is what
lies behind the Genesis Myth.

Although Anu allows Adapa to become immortal, it is his servant,
Nin-Gish-Zida, who actually put in a good word on Adapa's behalf, and who is
instructed to actually present the food and drink to Adapa. Ningishzida was
a guard at the heavenly gate with Tammuz (both had in earlier myths, been
dwellers of the underworld, who achieved a resurrection to heaven). Some
myths call Tammuz, "Damu, the child Ningishzida," so both gods are aspects
of each other. No humans got to Anu's prsence without first having
Tammuz/Ningishzida take them by the hand and present them, putting in a good
word for them.

Ningishzida was not only an alternate form of Tammuz, he also called "The
Great Serpent-Dragon of Heaven," being identified with the star
constellation Hydra (Hydra being a creature with multiple serpent heads). He
was alternately associated with the winged and horned serpent dragon called
"Mushussu." Mushussu apears standing on hind legs, holding a staff  (or a
gate ?) in his forepaws (Langdon p.285, fig. 88). A cylinder seal of Gudea
of Lagash, shows Ningishzida in human form, taking Gudaea by the hand and
presenting him as a petitioner before the great god, Anu. Arising from
Ningishzida's human shoulders are two horned dragon heads. Behind Gudaea, on
the same seal, we see Ningishzida in animal form as a horned, winged,
serpent-dragon, walking on all four legs.  I conclude that Christianity's
later imagery of Satan as the Serpent in the garden of Eden, is a reflex of
some sort of Ningishizida, who had the power to take on human form (in human
form he wears a multiple horned turban, a sign he is a god, and is beared,
with robe), as well as that as the Mighty-Serpent-Dragon of Heaven and of
the Underworld. In the Underworld he was called the bearer of the Throne,
and "binder" of those who do evil. Langdon understands he was originally a
vegetation deity, and calls him a "Tree-god" (p.90, Langdon).

I understand that Christ is another myth, he arose from the underworld in a
resurrection (and is associated with a tree, called a cross), to stand at
the right hand of God. No man is allowed into the Father's presence without
Christ bringing him to the Father. In the Christian re-working of this
ancient Mesopotamian myth I understand that Christ has replaced
Ningishzida/Tammuz, who offered man immortality. So, in the Mesopotamian
myths, the serpent who could walk and talk, talk not only to man, but
face-to-face with the supreme god, Anu, who offered man immortality with
food and water of life, in heaven, is what lies behind not only the Genesis
myth, but the Christian myths about Christ as well. A crude and shocking way
of putting this, is that the Mesopotamian Dragon-Serpent, has been
"pre-empted" by Christ, who has taken over all his roles (Dying and being
resurrected, Petitioner of Man before God, Offerer of Immortality, via the
food and water of Life).

Other motifs, from additional Mesopotamian myths worked into the Edenic
story, are the "Epic of Gilgamesh," and "Enki and Ninhursag in Dilmun," but
space forbids me going on any further. I think you get my drift .

For those intersted in further research on the above topics, any good
Ancient Near Eastern Mythology text can provide further details. Or you can
contact me off-list. The source used here is Stephen Herbert Langdon, M.A.,
The Mythology of All the Races, Semitic, Vol. 5, Boston, Marshall Jones
Company, 1931, pp.454). By the way, this is from some "old research" I did
back in 1990.

Still available via e-mail are the following papers (all said papers being
from a "Humanist Perspective"):

"Sabbath Origins and the Epic of Gilgamesh," arguing that Genesis' notion of
"a God needing to rest" and setting aside a 7th day to rest on, is derived
from motifs in this epic.

"Hell's Pre-Christian Origins," identifies motifs from the myths about the
underworld, utilized and re-worked by the Early Christians, drawing from
Mesopotamian, Egyptian, and Greek stories.

"The Millenium, Christ's Thousand Year Reign (The Pre-Christain Origins
of)," Arguing that the early Christians have drawn from Pre-Christian Greek
motifs and re-interpreted them.

"The Pentateuch, A Second Temple Creation ? (Unraveling the Japheth
Mystery)," by identifying what peoples or nation Japheth is, in Noah's
prophecy, a valuable key is had to the dating of the Pentateuch. It is
argued the Persians are Japheth.

All the best,

Walter

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2000-August/008121.html

Balancing Eastern and Western, Chaos and Order
Contact me on reaper@wayotherede.com

Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2015, 08:02:50 pm »
A good find.
Thanks.

In my travels I have found this link which might be showing where the original myth is speaking of.

It is now underwater and there is the problem of the rivers flowing the wrong way by geological changes may be a part of that problem.

I like scholarly works better than pure religious works and give this one some veracity while remembering that we may never know the full truth this far up the time line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J11B6xFLYnA

My main goal is to try to get folks to reject literal reading of these myths.
 
That literal reading is what has helped Christianity become a homophobic and misogynous religion.

A reversal of that immorality would not hurt.

Regards
DL

Offline Midnight_Carnival

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Re: Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2015, 01:15:54 pm »
I don't think the garden of eden was ever meant to be thought of as an actual place on earth, to me it seems more like a sort of principle pwopel should work towards?
I also think that Jerusalem is in some ways similar: It is by no means the most amazing city in terms of location, resources, etc... but millions of lives have been lost in battles over this city. It's almost like they aren't fighting over the place itself but the idea of owning it.
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2015, 07:13:46 pm »
I don't think the garden of eden was ever meant to be thought of as an actual place on earth, to me it seems more like a sort of principle pwopel should work towards?
I also think that Jerusalem is in some ways similar: It is by no means the most amazing city in terms of location, resources, etc... but millions of lives have been lost in battles over this city. It's almost like they aren't fighting over the place itself but the idea of owning it.

Israel is a unique situation.

It exemplifies why literal reading of myths is damaging to humanity.

That situation has nothing to do with religions but the participants are using religions as a springboard to manipulate their secular governments.

Take religions out of the equations and peace will have a chance because then it is just a mater of demographics and those are relatively easy to fix because the number crunchers will find the solutions that passionate religionists cannot find because of ancient biases.

There are too many tribes at play. When two get closer, a third faction get's worried about it's position and power and causes mischief for all.

Secularism is slowly taking over and therein lies the solution but that is a painfully slow process when too many factions are on a war footing.

Religions, FMPOV, have to get their immoral asses out of politics.

I answered another this morning with the following and I will make an O.P. some time with it. It speaks in part to these issues. Please have a look and opine.

--------------------------

Gnostic Christians do not hold supernatural beliefs. That is partly why Christianity decimated us. We basically told them to shove their idiotic supernatural based beliefs up their empty minds.

 Gnosis, in part means knowledge. Not non-knowledge, which is what the supernatural is. All the supernatural is fantasy.

 Do people deserve a God they can see and argue law with, or do we deserve hidden Gods who we can never look in the eye, like Yahweh, and tell them to their face that they are pricks?

 I think that if we hide our God or if they hide from us it proves that they are false Gods. A real God would step up.

 Most religions promote delusional thinking. I have no problem with that when no harm is done by them. There are all kinds of good crazy people. It is the evil crazy religionists that I fight.

 Christianity and Islam are retarding humanities spiritual growth with their homophobic and misogynous policies. If those religions cannot give their own people equality, it means that they are already denigrating and discriminating against half the members of all the other religions and non-believers so how can we ever have a rapprochement within the heart of the world?
 Especially while those vile unequal policies promoted by Christianity and Islam are in place.

 The mainstream religions therefore make rapprochement impossible and are what is causing most of the tension and evil in the world.

 Get rid of religions and you get rid of war. War begins with inequality and that is what Christianity and Islam are all about.

 My hate of the religions on offer is not personal. Religions cannot touch me as I have move above their station.

 Truth is, the church that helped me would likely see me as a traitor to it. They would be right.

 I have been helped quite a bit by the church and owe them much. I was lucky that the evil within some of their evil systems did not get to me. The hate you see in me is me trying to pay them and the rest of the world back for the easy life that I have inadvertently had.

 Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

 I show my love and try to repay humanity by showing what should be hated.

 Regards
 DL

 

Offline Midnight_Carnival

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Re: Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2015, 02:23:24 pm »
"Get rid of religions and you get rid of war. War begins with inequality and that is what Christianity and Islam are all about."

I can only partly agree with you there. Religions are obviously about inequality, religions exist to create social inequality : Gods are superior to men and men who believe and are 'holy' are superior to men who don't believe and or are otherwise 'unclean'.

Getting rid of religion does not in my opinion imediately remove social inequality and removing social inequality does most certainly not remove wars.

Everyone in a society being equal does not mean that everyone outisde the society is equal to those in it, and even if that were the case as well, wars can still be fought over resources since while all can be pollitically equal, they might not share the same material circumstances.
I still think that in a perfect commie state there would be war becasue I see it as a genetic urge like the urge to procreate.
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2015, 04:09:09 pm »
We definitely crave drama and war. Man is basically serving two masters. Bread and circuses as Socrates would say.

That is an issue apart fro equality though.

I have actually put something together to post later as an O.P.

Please opine.

Christian and Muslim inequality OUT. World piece IN.

Oversimplification?  Perhaps.
 
All worthy theologies and legal philosophies tie righteousness to equality.

Christianity and Islam are retarding humanities spiritual growth with their homophobic and misogynous policies that are guaranteed to produce inequality and thus unrighteousness.

If Christians and Muslims cannot give their own people equality, it obviously means that Christians and Muslims are already denigrating and discriminating against better than half the members of all the other religions and non-believers. This prevents mutual respect and rapprochement of the world’s religions and makes world peace impossible?

War begins with inequality and that is what Christianity and Islam are all about at present. Those two major religions cannot co-exist without a policy of equality. Equality is the corner stone of justice and both Christianity and Islam do not grant this most fundamental of all legal tenets.

I believe that if we could change Christian and Muslim attitudes on equality, world piece would soon follow.

Christians and Muslims. What are you waiting for to become righteous people?

Regards
DL



Offline Midnight_Carnival

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Re: Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2015, 09:55:26 am »
Were all gods once human kings?

I'm not sure of this but I'd say probably not.
I can see how there might be a great king who died and was missed by his followers so after he was gone they made up somthing about how he would now welcome all his subjects to the afterlife... but I'm thinking of the Indian god Shiva -somehow it doesn't fit.

My belief is that humans made the gods in their image - even if the Divinity was real, humans could not approach it directly and ended up only working with an aspect of Divinity - these aspects, the "images" we make of gods are always imperfect because we are (in our present state) imperfect. Even if we create an aspect to worship which is only good, a god of pure love, peace, light and harmony, we end up creating a 'shadow' of the god which is his opposite, hatered, war, darkness and chaos. Whether we make an actual satan in our religion or whether we just present these things as forces working against the god in the world - and whether we see these forces as agencies in their own right or simply as the lack of the god's qualities - the satan we create is an aspect of us, just as the god is an aspect of us - we give them the agency to rule over our universes but by doing so we lessen our own Divine aspect.
I believe in a Divinity beyond man, but it is not a Divinity we can know or understand in our present state.

As I see it, the universe in which we live is an aspect of our being since the universe in which we live is something we create through our perception and judgement - whether there is a universe beyond our perception we can not say becasue we can not move beyond our perception - most people have faith that there is more to the universe than their perception because those who don't are likely to dispair and because people do not like to take responsiblity for the unpleasant universes they create for themelves. In a sense I see Divinity as that which lies beyond our perception, that which we can not percieve.
In much the same way, I see us as an aspect of Divinity, all those we meet and every stone we trip over are aspects of divinity too - Divinity is us and Divinity is not us, as 'not us' it can be others, however annoying, dirty or unholy the person we encounter we are dealing with an aspect of Divinity we have not reconciled ourselves with - whether these people are real or simply delusions or hallucination does not matter. The part of them we can see and recongnise is in us whether we accept it or not. Someone who percieves something which is not in him will most frequently relate it to soemthing in his own frame of reference - assumptions we make about others, suspicions regarding their 'true nature' and motivations, etc.
I have faith that sometimes there are things which happen which we can not relate to anything in our lives or frames of reference, this to me is a revelation of the Divine, however unpleasant or wondeful it may later be, it is not good nor bad when it happens to us, only compltely unintelligible.

I see that we are spirits as all things are Spirit - spirits are will, but spritis are a path as well.
We ourselves are a path to Spirit/Divinity, others can follow our path and we can follow the path of others, but to follow the path of others we will only ever get so close and no closer to true Divinity. Recongnising the Dinivity manifest in us and working towards a unified Divinity incorporating all aspects is far closer.

So yes, I think that in a sense all gods were once human, that is becasue they were shaped through human peception, but the human was not some long dead king, it was actually us :wink:
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Was the real Jewish Garden of Eden located in Jerusalem?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2015, 05:39:27 pm »
We are about on the same page.

Seems that you have done your homework and have thought things out rather well.

Nice to see.

Regards
DL