Author Topic: The Bible. Myth or Reality?  (Read 4000 times)

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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« on: May 20, 2015, 06:12:45 pm »
The Bible. Myth or Reality?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAEpc1zhcuo

As a Gnostic Christian I see literal reading of the Bible as a gross distortion of what the Bible was written to do. That being to inspire people to seek God and his best laws and rules. Literal readers just become idol worshipers and do not seek God the way Jesus instructed.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Literal reading has created and idol worshiping closed minded people who have settled for an immoral God whom we name as a demiurge as his morals, if literally true, are more satanic than God like.

Literal reading has also created a climate where scholars and experts, historians and archeologist, and all the academically well accepted information they uncover, --- is being ignored or called lies by those who are not academics of the various disciplines.

What is the point of producing good academics if literalists are going to ignore facts because of blind faith?
 
Remember please that if not a book of myths, then real talking serpents are somehow supposed to still exist and believers have to believe in a lot of supernatural phenomenon without any evidence whatsoever. Literalist Christians, it seems to me, have suspended rational judgement that has created in Christians a new Dark Age of thought and an Inquisitional attitude towards all other thinking. They no longer seek God and are true idol worshipers instead of the God seekers that Jesus wanted to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBxFXQy7-M


Do you think the Bible to be a book of myths or a book trying to show reality and history?

Regards
DL

Offline Midnight_Carnival

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2015, 03:06:47 pm »
You're asking Pagans whether the Christian bible is myth or reality?  :hehehe:

Gnostics believe that (very crude praraphrasal) things existing in matter was never part of God's plan, a being named the Demiurge corrupted the perfect state by creating things rather than apreciating them as ideas (?) soemthing like that(?) Perhaps you have a better (brief) explaination for us.
Also please clarify how the figure of Christ fits into Gnostic beliefs.

As far as I'm concerned the bible is a story, good in some parts and a bit boring in others. Is it "true"? to me it really doesn't matter, but I'd venture that it is a very much adulterated account of various (not necesarrily non-contradictory) divine revelations. Jesus was a wise and clever man who practiced thaumaturgy and preached a lot of things many of which I don't think I agree with, his teachings were recorded and their original message was adapted to agree with Greek Idealist philosophy for some reason. Whether Jesus was a man or only a story I do not know, nor do I care, whether he was one man or several, I do not know nor care.

This is how I understand "truth" - if you believe in something so strongly that the effect of your belief in it changes your behavior and by extension changes the world, then that thing is 'real' regardless of whether it would exist indepenedntly of you or not. If you look at it carefully, this is not simply an incredible power, it is a frightening resposiblity.

So on the bible: I don't know and I don't have an opinion.
On Gnostic beliefs (although you didn't ask): I'd be interested to learn more as long as the aim is to share information (probably to improve the quality of the conversation) and not to change my beliefs or sell my books, etc...

Thanks for posing thought-provoking questions, I shall try to be more intelligent in future.
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2015, 03:42:10 pm »
You're asking Pagans whether the Christian bible is myth or reality?  :hehehe:

Gnostics believe that (very crude praraphrasal) things existing in matter was never part of God's plan, a being named the Demiurge corrupted the perfect state by creating things rather than apreciating them as ideas (?) soemthing like that(?) Perhaps you have a better (brief) explaination for us.
Also please clarify how the figure of Christ fits into Gnostic beliefs.

As far as I'm concerned the bible is a story, good in some parts and a bit boring in others. Is it "true"? to me it really doesn't matter, but I'd venture that it is a very much adulterated account of various (not necesarrily non-contradictory) divine revelations. Jesus was a wise and clever man who practiced thaumaturgy and preached a lot of things many of which I don't think I agree with, his teachings were recorded and their original message was adapted to agree with Greek Idealist philosophy for some reason. Whether Jesus was a man or only a story I do not know, nor do I care, whether he was one man or several, I do not know nor care.

This is how I understand "truth" - if you believe in something so strongly that the effect of your belief in it changes your behavior and by extension changes the world, then that thing is 'real' regardless of whether it would exist indepenedntly of you or not. If you look at it carefully, this is not simply an incredible power, it is a frightening resposiblity.

So on the bible: I don't know and I don't have an opinion.
On Gnostic beliefs (although you didn't ask): I'd be interested to learn more as long as the aim is to share information (probably to improve the quality of the conversation) and not to change my beliefs or sell my books, etc...

Thanks for posing thought-provoking questions, I shall try to be more intelligent in future.

I am willing to bet and hope that not all here are pagans. If all are, mono cultures usually end up quite boring.

I do not try to change a persons belief as all benign beliefs are worthy. I do try to direct your belief into what we believe is a method of increasing your Gnosis into your own belief and if lucky, have you find God. Not a miracle working God but God as perceived by one of the Jesus' archetypes in the bible.

Here is a bit of our history and what I offer for your consideration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

The thinking shown below is the Gnostic Christian’s goal as taught by Jesus but know that any belief can be internalized to activate your higher mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded
   
This method and mind set is how you become I am and brethren to Jesus, in the esoteric sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

When you can name your God, I am, and mean yourself, you will begin to know the only God you will ever find. Becoming a God is to become more fully human and a brethren to Jesus.

Regards
DL






 

Offline Midnight_Carnival

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2015, 11:26:53 am »
 :lol: "Pagan" is a very broad term, previously it was something people were accused of, a perjorative meaning something like "backward country folk" (it comes from the word for hill so 'hill-billies'?). More recently the term has been apropriated by people from various beliefs with certain things in common. We have a lot of Wicca here, I'm an "oldschool Pagan" which is to say I come from a family who's maintained a tradition which predates the modern formulation of Wicca as a religion although it draws from the same traditions, we also have warlocks, people into eastern stuff and people who just kind of go with what works for them.
I wouldn't exactly call us a monoculture.

I might get round to reading one of your links some time, I don't normally do this because I get substandard internet free at the library and need to use my 45min session to do a lot of things, so loading lots of unknown pages, or worse videos, may cause crashes.
I for one am satisfied that you're not a spambot or someone like people from certian religions who come to your door with lots of pamphlets and big smiles.  :biggrin:

I'm intersted in your beliefs and some of what you say resonates well with me. I see it as important that we realise our Divine nature and that we are an aspect of Divinity/Spirit/God, just as Divinity is an aspect of us and of everything we percieve and a hell of a lot that we don't.
I'm not sure the second hand version of Gnosticism I've been told about is anything like what you believe in, but I should warn you that I may have difficulty accepting notions of universal dualism, those originating in the Greek (Idealist philospher's) understanding of the spirit as 'psyche' = "mind/spirit" and other things commonly found in monotheistic religions such as live and the world being inherently flawed, evil and 'weak', with a 'point' which we can only realise after death.
I'm just telling you these things in case you think I'm attacking you or your beliefs, I'm not but if you discuss them with me there will be things I will disagree with you on. It is exactly the same for other "Pagans" here on the forum, that's why I don't have any friends  :p
You should not take my views as being indicative of those of the community either, I do not intend to convert anyone to my way of thinking.
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2015, 08:29:21 pm »
No problem. I do not try to convert. I do show a possible path for whatever anyone believes.

As a Universalist religion, I can accept almost any (harmless) belief and work it into what I sell.

I try to have people find their God and not mine.

Regards
DL

Offline Re@PeR

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2015, 01:52:32 pm »
I think the Bible, Quran, ... are all mythological with some folklore and maybe some distorted history mixed in and with some stolen stories  from other stories. If the human race had to follow the literal interpretation of everything written in the Bible, we'd have another ISIS declaring a holy war because somebody was wearing cotton and wool together.

Quote
New International Version
Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.

New Living Translation
"You must not wear clothing made of wool and linen woven together.

English Standard Version
You shall not wear cloth of wool and linen mixed together.

New American Standard Bible
"You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together.

King James Bible
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Do not wear clothes made of both wool and linen.

International Standard Version
"Don't wear material made from wool and linen mixed together.

NET Bible
You must not wear clothing made with wool and linen meshed together.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Never wear clothes made of wool and linen woven together.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Thou shalt not wear a garment of mixture, as of woolen and linen together.

King James 2000 Bible
You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, as of woolen and linen together.

American King James Version
You shall not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woolen and linen together.

American Standard Version
Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Thou shalt not wear a garment that is woven of woollen and linen together.

Darby Bible Translation
Thou shalt not wear a garment of mixed material, [woven] of wool and linen together.

English Revised Version
Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together.

Webster's Bible Translation
Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woolen and linen together.

World English Bible
You shall not wear a mixed stuff, wool and linen together.

Young's Literal Translation
'Thou dost not put on a mixed cloth, wool and linen together.
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2015, 05:19:52 pm »
Indeed. We have had enough of religious Dark Ages and Inquisitions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

I note that Christians have evolved enough, finally, to know that the Yahweh is quite the prick with poor morals and that his laws are not worthy of us.

Islam has yet to evolve en mass although there are pockets of sanity hiding within the rank and file.

Regards
DL

Offline Midnight_Carnival

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 09:50:34 am »
My experience with Muslims has been the following:

The vast majority are tolerant, peace-loving moderates who have as much interest in declaring holy war on someone for eating differently to them, dressing differently to them, believing in different things or worshipping another deity or the same deity under a different name as they have in eating broken glass to prove their faith.

A few are loud-mouthed and offensive, they enjoy shouting about Isreal being "an apartheid state" and talk about how they have no symathy for American soldiers who die in the middle east. However, of these the majority seem to actually be people like you and me when you get to know them and while they support holy wars, etc in principle, they have as much interest in actually participating in one as they do in blowing themselves to hell in a suicide boming attack to prove their faith.

Then you get the genuine religious fantatics, zealots and psychopaths: I've yet to meet one, I know that they either exist or that the media wastes tons of money manufacturing "news" about them - (   :lol: If you're Muslim and agree that all that has been reported is a fabrication which is part of a golbal conspiracy against Muslims then there's a good chance that you are someone who fits somewhere into this catagory and please do not contact me.)
I think that Muslims who go do the things we see on tv are like Afrikaaners who drag black people behind bakkies until they die or Germans who shave their heads and go and kill Jews even now - they exist, but they are really the exceptions. Sadly a Muslim being tolerant and kind doesn't make good news (I'm not going on about how the media spreads lies and anti-Islamic propoganda here!) - perhpas it doesn't make good news because if we're honest we'll admit that it is not that uncommon? I just find it sad that the actions of a few are taken to be the general characteristics of anyone who believes certain things.

This is just me telling what I regard as the truth, personally I'd never convert to even highly moderate reformed Islam because I don't believe that your relationship with the Divine should be about what you do how and when (ritual) but rather a state you choose to be in. I also have problems with their strictly monotheistic outlook and their strong "black and white, good or evil" views (applied to their own morality, etc in moderates and to others in zealots)
I don't know what Muslims are ready for or not, I can tell you that it is the opinion of most Muslims that Islamic State are not Muslim since their propaganda and practice apparently goes against everything in the Qur'aan (spelling).
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 04:08:48 pm »
Thanks for this.

True that most Muslim majority states vote secular.

I am not as lenient or tolerant with Islam as you are. Sure, most Muslims are as you say, just average and peaceful Muslims but like Christianity, the root of their hate is shown from the fact that they have institutionalized homophobia and misogyny.

Islam is no more moral or just than Christianity which has also institutionalized theat misguided hate against women and gays.

Regards
DL

Offline Midnight_Carnival

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2015, 03:12:22 pm »
... like Christianity, the root of their hate is shown from the fact that they have institutionalized homophobia and misogyny.

Islam is no more moral or just than Christianity which has also institutionalized theat misguided hate against women and gays.

:lol: the same could be (and has been) said of western society in general and of almost any tradition.

I realise I haven't given a clear answer to your original question yet:
there are many understandings of the term "myth" - without going into the myth-ritual theory or Jung's views to justify/provide a point of reference for my own, I think that a "myth" is a (presumably fictional) strory either set in primeaval times or on a cosmic scale which contains what a culture believe to be "universal truth(/s)" I also believe that the story itself is often acredited with powers or influences over the natural and or spiritual world. In all these cases I find that the bible fits and so, yes, I regard it as a myth.

Whether it is "ture" or not is another matter I think that we can find truth in the bible, just as we can in Islamic scripture or any myth - whether it is the truth those who wrote/composed the text originally intended us to find is up to us.
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2015, 02:14:08 am »
I hear you on most cultures being misogynous.

Few countries are walking their equality talk.

On your description of myths with messages. No argument.

I will say that literalists often pick up the wrong messages due to literal reading and some of that is just making sure their idol always liiks clean even when full of mud.

Regards
DL



Offline Midnight_Carnival

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2015, 10:37:18 am »
I'm delighted to find others who don't think that any discussion on the bible is a dogma pissing contest between Dawkinsist Atheists and 7 Day Creationists. It really annoys me. Also, I feel you don't have to accept something 100% to have views on it - I'm not the only one here who has felt the effects of people's interperetations of the bible and just because I'm not a crizzy, don't mean I don't have a right to have my say.

As for cultures being misogynous, yes, they are.
But we will often find that it is not such a simple matter as men beating up women (literally and figuratively).
Men raised in the various cultures were raised by women - I don't know of any which seperates children from their mothers so as not to contaminate them with feminine influences.
These men grow up to be bastards and women hate them.
Well, who raised them to be that way? society, did society breastfeed them and tuck them in at night? did society tell them it was ok when it sure as hell wasn't, did society fail to give them any role-model other than a drunken and abusive father?
Many times we find that in traditional cultures it is the women who actively continue perpetuate the traditions, some times to a greater degree than the men (who simply find where they are comfortable and don't really want to move).
You may read what I'm saying here as simply blaming the victims or even supporting the abusive cultures. I won't defend myself if that is the case. All I meant to do was to remind people that it isn't the whole world forcing you to do something or not do something every day - culture is not a real physical thing, it's like a story we tell our children, if there are parts no longer relevant or parts we don't agree with there is no reason we should tell them to our children - if somebody says that we're not telling it right, bugger them.

With regards to scriptures, few say that you should actively beat and opress women - most just give excuses to those who were going to do it anyway. Even homosexuality is more often condemned and discouraged than presented as something we need to cut out like cancer - it's more a case of "don't do that, it's disgusting" than "thou shalt not suffer a homosexual to live" - I have a gay friend who I had an intersting discussion with on the subject. - I'm assuming he knows the scriptures better than me becasue he was raised as a very orthodox christian - he told me that Jesus spoke out against the social issues of his time (which is why he now wears that halo) he condemned greed, corruption, abuse of power, religious things etc. Not one word against homosexuality, and since that part of the world had been subject to Greek, and then Roman rule for a while, it was not as if it were unknown in his society.
These days of course, being gay and xtian is treated as a contradiction by many - who knows what the case was back then.
Was Jesus gay? don't know, don't care.
Did he instruct his followers to go out and kill homosexuals? no.

As for "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"... well that's another kettle of turnips entierly.
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Offline Gnostic Bishop

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2015, 09:59:26 pm »
I think culture and peer pressure of our various tribal units have a lager impact and influence on us than what our mothers and fathers do.

We are in the home just for a relatively short time as compared to the years in school and work.

The media drives our social interactions and attitudes quite a bit.

I recall when my boys were growing up going to pick them up at the end of a birthday party they were attending.

One was just into school and the other was going to start his first year so both were quite young.

The children were just finishing watching a movie whose title I have forgotten but if was certainly not the type of movie that we would have let them watch at home.

I think we have a ways to go to teach all of us what equality means. If we do not know, we can never walk our talk.

http://www.ted.com/talks/colin_stokes_how_movies_teach_manhood

Regards
DL

Offline Midnight_Carnival

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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2015, 10:40:33 am »
We seem to be going quite far off topic here - I don't mind, but you might want to start a new topic on religion, culture, tradition and equality on the General Discussion or Other section? Just so that we don't have any new people joining the conversation getting the wrong idea what we're talking about.

As for peer pressure and media: I'd have to disagree with you there.
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Re: The Bible. Myth or Reality?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2015, 07:53:07 pm »
True. We do not want to get too far from the O.P.

Let me just finish with a quick note on equality.

Most men I speak to about it, and that would be mostly religious men, don't care if their wives, daughters and mothers are not considered equal.

I think it strange but I am bias the other way.

Regards
DL